[Sarnissa] FW: Probiotics ? Pond fertilisation ……..

En francais au dessous From: Warren A. Turner [mailto:warren2@tilapiathai.com] Sent: 27 October 2015 02:03 To: William Leschen; 'Anetekhaimartins' Cc: sarnissa-french-aquaculture Mailing List Subject: RE: Probiotics ? Pond fertilisation …….. Hi All, I have always been skeptical of probiotics added to the water. I recently had a meeting with a guy who knows a lot about them since he wanted to approach our customers to sell them. The bacteria is Bacillus subtilis which can live aerobically or anaerobically. They call this ability facultative. They are supplied as spores (not cysts) which multiply rapidly and then reach a peak after I think 2 days and then gradually drop off to nothing in 18 days. The reason he told me is like cells in your body, as you get older, even though there is no change in your DNA and your cells are always dividing and replacing each other, they become old. I guess you need to go back to a stem cell to get new ones again. Like a babies skin compared to an old person. I guess a spore is like an egg cell. This is why you have to add on a weekly basis. Anyway I haven’t got time to go into this too much. If you put probiotic in feed you don’t need to put it in the pond, as it comes out in the faeces. The benefits are supposed to be digestion and removal of faeces and uneaten feed on the bottom. I just did a trial and added probiotic to a pond on a weekly basis. I took bottom core samples from 2 points twice per week. There did seem to be a reduction in the thickness and the black colour reduced slightly to a very dark brown. My branch in Nakhon Pathom province in Thailand uses this probiotic and says the ponds don’t smell when they drain them. I did once do a trial over a year in which I used 9 ponds. 3 control, 3 a probiotic called Ecobac and 3 with a product called Aquafresh. I did 5 crops of sex reversal in each pond and Aquafresh gave 10% better survival and Ecobac 5% over the whole period. The guy from the company says you will notice much more benefit if you are raising fish more intensively. If you are like us and keep densities fairly low (over the whole pond that is) and drain ponds regularly you might not notice any difference. Like Will said, there is no replacement for good husbandry. That should always come first. Best regards Warren Salut tout le monde, Je l'ai toujours été sceptique des probiotiques ajoutés à l'eau. Je récemment eu une réunion avec un gars qui sait beaucoup de choses sur eux depuis qu'il voulait approcher nos clients pour leur vendre. La bactérie est Bacillus subtilis qui peuvent vivre aérobie ou anaérobie. Ils appellent cette capacité facultative. Ils sont fournis sous forme de spores (pas kystes) qui se multiplient rapidement et atteignent un pic après je pense que 2 jours et ensuite tomber graduellement à rien dans 18 jours. La raison qu'il m'a dit est comme cellules de votre corps, que vous vieillissez, même si il n'y a aucun changement dans votre ADN et vos cellules sont toujours diviser et remplacer l'autre, ils deviennent vieux. Je suppose que vous avez besoin de revenir à une cellule souche pour obtenir à nouveau de nouveaux. Comme une peau de bébé par rapport à une personne âgée. Je suppose une spore est comme un ovule. Voilà pourquoi vous devez ajouter sur une base hebdomadaire. Quoi qu'il en soit, je ne l'ai pas eu le temps d'aller dans ce trop. Si vous mettez probiotique dans l'alimentation que vous ne devez pas le mettre dans l'étang, comme il vient dans les fèces. Les avantages sont censés être la digestion et l'élimination des matières fécales et les aliments non consommés sur le fond. Je viens de faire un procès et a ajouté probiotique à un étang sur une base hebdomadaire. Je pris des échantillons de carottes de fond à partir de 2 points fois par semaine. Il ne semble y avoir une réduction de l'épaisseur et la couleur noire légèrement réduit à un brun très foncé. Mon succursale dans la province de Nakhon Pathom en Thaïlande utilise ce probiotique et dit les étangs ne sentent pas quand ils les égoutter. Je ne le fais une fois un procès plus d'un an que je l'habitude 9 étangs. 3 contrôle, 3 un probiotique appelé ECOBAC et 3 avec un produit appelé Aquafresh. Je l'ai fait 5 cultures de changement de sexe dans chaque étang et Aquafresh donné 10% de mieux survie et ECOBAC 5% sur l'ensemble de la période. Le gars de la compagnie dit, vous remarquerez beaucoup plus d'avantages si vous élevez des poissons plus intensive. Si vous êtes comme nous et garder densités relativement faible (sur l'ensemble du bassin qui est) et de drain étangs régulièrement, vous pourriez ne pas remarqué une différence. Comme Will dit, il n'y a pas de remplacement pour un bon élevage. Cela devrait toujours venir en premier. Cordialement Warren From: Sarnissa-african-aquaculture [mailto:sarnissa-african-aquaculture-bounces@lists.stir.ac.uk] On Behalf Of William Leschen via Sarnissa-african-aquaculture Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 5:52 PM To: 'Anetekhaimartins' Cc: sarnissa-african-aquaculture Mailing List; sarnissa-french-aquaculture Mailing List Subject: Probiotics ? Pond fertilisation …….. Probiotics ? Pond fertilisation …….. Read through thread - En francais au dessous [cid:image001.jpg@01D11094.EB841080] Dear Anetekhai I didn’t recommend probiotics …. ! Murali did - one of our fish farming members - I am posting your reply up on the forum to see if others have any thoughts or ideas about using and paying for probiotics to fertilise their ponds for tilapia catfish – their positive and or negative effects? Personally I don’t think its relevant here as they are normally used in Asia for other purposes particularly related to health on commercial shrimp farms - Note in Nigeria as you are probably aware they (and their like) are increasingly being added as feed supplements for the Clarias hatchery and juveniles without in a lot of cases in my opinion the fish farmers actually knowing what they are buying and using – also in Nigeria “Tonics” for pond water quality now been openly sold off the shelf (at high prices) in bottles and packets by pharmaceutical companies which again the fish farmers have little idea what the active ingredients are and how they should work – or I should say IF they work . With respect For pond fertilisation I would read carefully the words of the people who have been doing it years in Asia and some in Africa - and realise that this is something that cannot just come out of a text book or be remedied by buying a packet or bottle from a pharmacist – is site specific and has to come from careful observation and years of experience…… Best wishes Will From: Anetekhaimartins [mailto:anetekhaimartins@gmail.com] Sent: 26 October 2015 07:30 To: William Leschen Subject: RE: FW: Semi-intensive ponds Optomimum fetilsation and maintenance Mozambique Good day William, I just read one of your responses in which you recommended probiotic. I have also observed some farmers bringing into Nigeria some probiotics for use. My fear is that there may be negative impact on the long run. Are you aware of any such report? Can you educate me on any negetive impact. Thank you. Anetekhai martins Cher Anetekhai Je ne recommande pas les probiotiques .... ! Murali a fait - l'un de nos membres de pisciculture - je poster votre réponse sur le forum pour voir si d'autres ont des pensées ou des idées sur l'utilisation et le paiement des probiotiques pour fertiliser leurs étangs du tilapia poisson-chat? Personnellement, je ne pense pas que son compte ici, car ils sont normalement utilisés en Asie à d'autres fins liées notamment à la santé sur les élevages de crevettes commerciaux - Note au Nigeria que vous êtes probablement au courant qu'ils (et leurs semblables) sont de plus en plus ajoutés comme compléments alimentaires pour l'écloserie de Clarias et mineurs sans en beaucoup de cas, à mon avis, les pisciculteurs sachant réellement ce qu'ils achètent et utilisent - aussi au Nigeria "toniques" pour la qualité de l'eau de l'étang désormais ouvertement vendus (à des prix élevés) dans des bouteilles et des paquets par les compagnies pharmaceutiques qui encore une fois les pisciculteurs ont peu idée de ce que les ingrédients actifs sont et comment ils doivent travailler - ou devrais-je dire si elles travail . Avec respect pour la fertilisation des étangs Je voudrais lire attentivement les paroles des gens qui ont fait ça années en Asie et dans certains pays africains - et de réaliser que ceci est quelque chose qui ne peut pas juste de sortir d'un livre de texte ou être remédié par un achat d'un paquet - est spécifique au site et doit venir de l'observation et des années d'expérience attention ...... Amicalement Will De: Anetekhaimartins [mailto: anetekhaimartins@gmail.com<mailto:anetekhaimartins@gmail.com>] Envoyé 26 Octobre ici à 2015 7:30 Pour: William Leschen Sujet: Re: FW: étangs semi-intensifs fetilsation Optomimum et l'entretien du Mozambique Bonjour William, Je viens de lire un de vos réponses dans lequel vous recommandé probiotique. Je ai également observé certains agriculteurs mettant en Nigeria certains probiotiques pour l'utilisation. Ma crainte est qu'il peut y avoir des répercussions négatives sur le long terme. Etes-vous conscient d'un tel rapport? Pouvez-vous me renseigner sur tout impact negetive. Merci. Martins Anetekhai -------- Original message -------- From: William Leschen via Sarnissa-african-aquaculture <sarnissa-african-aquaculture@lists.stir.ac.uk<mailto:sarnissa-african-aquaculture@lists.stir.ac.uk>> Date: 24/10/2015 1:55 PM (GMT+01:00) To: sarnissa-african-aquaculture Mailing List <sarnissa-african-aquaculture@lists.stir.ac.uk<mailto:sarnissa-african-aquaculture@lists.stir.ac.uk>> Subject: FW: Semi-intensive ponds Optomimum fetilsation and maintenance Mozambique From: chnmurali@gmail.com<mailto:chnmurali@gmail.com> [mailto:chnmurali@gmail.com] Sent: 24 October 2015 10:12 To: William Leschen Subject: Re: Semi-intensive ponds Optomimum fetilsation and maintenance Mozambique Dear William Looking at the parameters sent by Chris it clearly says that pond is over blooming since the oxygen levels are over saturated. He mentioned total alkalinity as 180 but did not mention about carbonate and bicarbonate alkalinity or pH, I assume that pH will be definitely high in the evening times with high carbonates and also more CO2 in the early hours. This condition will subject the fish to extreme stress and sometimes mass mortality in early hours. Dilluting pond with fresh water also not a solution, the more you flush the more it blooms if the pond has accumulated organic load and high nitrogen levels. My suggestion is to drain surface water in the mid afternoon when plankton will be floating on surface at higher density and top up water in the night time. Add Sodium carbonate in the early hours to reduce CO2 and not to rise pH, never go to Calcium based liming products till he get stabilized pH. I assume that pH fluctuation at this stage might be more than 1, it's has to come down to 0.5 then only we can say buffering is good. Either organic or inorganic fertiliser he has to make a slurry, and broadcast that in water to avoid organic load entering pond when using organic fertiliser or inorganic fertiliser helping growth of macrophytes. He should not stop feeding but reduce it to half until bloom is stabilised. Start using Probiotics which can take care of water quality. With Regards Murali Sent from my iPhone On 24 Oct 2015, at 8:03 AM, William Leschen via Sarnissa-african-aquaculture <sarnissa-african-aquaculture@lists.stir.ac.uk<mailto:sarnissa-african-aquaculture@lists.stir.ac.uk>> wrote: Thanks Warren - Manual contains nice review of pond fertilisation Hi Chris, Farmers do this by looking at the water colour and fertilising in response to this. There will tend to be a need to increase fertilisation over time as the fish grow. A dried pond just filled with go green easily due to good light penetration. Turbidity reduces light penetration which phytoplankton depend on. Earthen ponds get more turbid with time. Soil obviously has a big effect. Cloudy weather also. Don't be tempted to keep putting in more fertiliser if the pond doesn't go green, particularly if the weather is very cloudy all day. As soon as you get a sunny day it will change to pea soup. The recommended amount found by research at AIT is 4 kg of nitrogen and 1-2 kg of phosphorous per ha per day. Of course you need to know how much N and P are in any organic ferilisers. Inorganic fertiliser is easier to calculate. %N is quoted on the bag, but P is quoted as P2O5 and to calculate how much P in a kg you need to allow of the oxygen. 1 mole of P is 30.974g and a mole of oxygen is 15.999. So a mole of P2O5 would weigh 109.918. 61.948g of this is P which is equivalent to 56.36% In 1 kg of16-20-0 fertiliser (N-P-K) you have 160g of N and 200 x 56.36% = 112.7g P. See this link to a pond rearing manual I put on the website = http://tilapiathai.com/asset/NILE%20TILAPIA%20CULTURE%20IN%20EARTHEN%20POND… If you are using inorganics and are adding N and P only, you might want to try adding K. For example, we used to use 16-20-0 which we apply at 187 kg/ha/week. We now use 15-15-15 at the same rate, as we find it gets the pond green better I assume as K is limiting sometimes. If the pond doesn't go green we can try adding dolomite which contains magnesium. If you are adding some organics, then you won't have deficiency of elements required in small amounts. Secchi disk measurements will relate not just to phytoplantkton levels, but all suspended solids. Chlorophyll levels can be measured, but it really isn't difficult to do it by eye. Remember that any feed going in the pond is also adding N and P. Best Warren On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:12 PM, William Leschen <william.leschen@stir.ac.uk<mailto:william.leschen@stir.ac.uk>> wrote: Dear Chris Thanks I will post this up on the sarnissa forum but am also copying to - rather than limnologists – much better in my opinion those who have applied and practiced hands on over many years - Peter (Edwards – you’ve already corresponded with him) and also Warren Turner in Thailand as Warren at Namsai has worked out protocols over the years for optimum fertilisation of his ponds and also maintenance/balance of blooms over longer prod time periods - noting also though that as you know the local pond substrate , water quality at inflow go to make up very specific water chemistry for particular sites – each one different – also their particular buffering capacity towards more stable algal bloom production over time - I think I realised a while ago on visits to long well established greenwater pond systems China exactly how much of a skill and an art this is – - and something that is very much experience based not just getting figures and dose rates for organic and inorganic from text books. Ive also copied to Mark Amechi in Ghana as his pond hatchery site through a nos of French origin site managers has developed greenwater pond systems for them that work over the years - Also for you might be worth looking to trial 1-2 ponds from scratch seeding of specific algal species ?If you haven’t already I would recommend looking at some of Claude Boyds now old but still very valid publications from Auburn - books but also plenty of papers Eg http://www.alibris.com/Dynamics-of-Pond-Aquaculture-Claude-E-Boyd/book/1847… http://www.amazon.com/By-Claude-Boyd-Aquaculture-Management/dp/B008WDSSL0 Best wishes Will From: Chris Schnell [mailto:cwschnell@gmail.com<mailto:cwschnell@gmail.com>] Sent: 22 October 2015 13:36 To: William Leschen Subject: Semi-intensive ponds Dear Will, If you have a limnologist in the forum, he could possibly help me resolve my questions. Or, anyone with experience of growing tilapia in mud ponds would most probably be able to clarify things. Producing tilapia in semi-intensive mud ponds using algae and supplementary feed is not all that easy as it sounds, especially when you start having problems with fertilizing the water. What is the best way to measure primary production of algae? Does oxygen levels tell the whole story, or does one also look at the green / grey colour of the water? Or are there better methods? My problem started with overdosing. It seems as if it takes a long time to dilute one’s nutrients and algae once you have a bloom with a reading of less than 15 cm on the Secchi disk. For financial reasons I did not want to remove water from my pond after over dosing, but now I keep on adding more water and the Secchi readings do not go up. I cut down dramatically in adding new fertilizer. This makes me worry that the algae in the pond could be dead or just floating solids and that the primary production, that serves as feed for the tilapia, is not sufficient. My ponds are around 1 hectare in size and the depth varies between 400mm and 900mm. Temperature is 27°C at the bottom and 29°C at the surface. Oxygen at 12h00 is 12.5 ml/l at the surface and 9.5 ml/l at a depth of 900 mm. I fertilise with dry cow manure, Urea and DAP. Total alkalinity is around 180. Best regards, Chris Schnell ________________________________ The University is ranked in the QS World Rankings of the top 5% of universities in the world (QS World University Rankings, 2014) The University of Stirling is a charity registered in Scotland, number SC 011159.