Re: [Sarnissa] FW: Probiotics ? Pond fertilisation ……..

28 Oct 2015

Bonsoir et merci beaucoup pour ce partage d'expérience sur l'usage des
Probiotiques en aquaculture.
 ************************************************************
LIMAN MOHAMASpécialiste en Production et Santé Animales Tropicales, Chef Service
de Production Animaleà la CEBEVIRHA - CEMAC
Avenue Mobutu, Quartier Moursal
B.P. 665 N'DJAMENA - TChad
Tel: (235) 95 41 42 36/(235)63 00 32 17 / (237) 75 74 70 37E-mail:
mohamaliman(a)yahoo.fr            limancamer(a)gmail.com 

     Le Mercredi 28 octobre 2015 13h27, William Leschen &lt;william.leschen(a)stir.ac.uk&gt;
a écrit :

En francais au dessous   
From: Warren A. Turner [mailto:warren2@tilapiathai.com]
Sent: 27 October 2015 02:03
To: William Leschen; 'Anetekhaimartins'
Cc: sarnissa-french-aquaculture Mailing List
Subject: RE: Probiotics ? Pond fertilisation ……..     Hi All,    I have always been
skeptical of probiotics added to the water.  I recently had a meeting with a guy who knows
a lot about them since he wanted to approach our customers to sell them.  The bacteria is
Bacillus subtilis which can live aerobically or anaerobically.  They call this ability
facultative.  They are supplied as spores (not cysts) which multiply rapidly and then
reach a peak after I think 2 days and then gradually drop off to nothing in 18 days.  The
reason he told me is like cells in your body, as you get older, even though there is no
change in your DNA and your cells are always dividing and replacing each other, they
become old.  I guess you need to go back to a stem cell to get new ones again. Like a
babies skin compared to an old person.  I guess a spore is like an egg cell.  This is why
you have to add on a weekly basis.  Anyway I haven’t got time to go into this too much.   
If you put probiotic in feed you don’t need to put it in the pond, as it comes out in the
faeces.     The benefits are supposed to be digestion and removal of faeces and uneaten
feed on the bottom.  I just did a trial and added probiotic to a pond on a weekly basis. 
I took bottom core samples from 2 points twice per week.  There did seem to be a reduction
in the thickness and the black colour reduced slightly to a very dark brown.  My branch in
Nakhon Pathom province in Thailand uses this probiotic and says the ponds don’t smell when
they drain them.    I did once do a trial over a year in which I used 9 ponds.  3 control,
3 a probiotic called Ecobac and 3 with a product called Aquafresh.  I did 5 crops of sex
reversal in each pond and Aquafresh gave 10% better survival and Ecobac 5% over the whole
period.     The guy from the company says you will notice much more benefit if you are
raising fish more intensively.  If you are like us and keep densities fairly low (over the
whole pond that is) and drain ponds regularly you might not notice any difference.  Like
Will said, there is no replacement for good husbandry.  That should always come first.   
Best regards    Warren       Salut tout le monde,

Je l'ai toujours été sceptique des probiotiques ajoutés à l'eau. Je récemment eu
une réunion avec un gars qui sait beaucoup de choses sur eux depuis qu'il voulait
approcher nos clients pour leur vendre. La bactérie est Bacillus subtilis qui peuvent
vivre aérobie ou anaérobie. Ils appellent cette capacité facultative. Ils sont fournis
sous forme de spores (pas kystes) qui se multiplient rapidement et atteignent un pic après
je pense que 2 jours et ensuite tomber graduellement à rien dans 18 jours. La raison
qu'il m'a dit est comme cellules de votre corps, que vous vieillissez, même si il
n'y a aucun changement dans votre ADN et vos cellules sont toujours diviser et
remplacer l'autre, ils deviennent vieux. Je suppose que vous avez besoin de revenir à
une cellule souche pour obtenir à nouveau de nouveaux. Comme une peau de bébé par rapport
à une personne âgée. Je suppose une spore est comme un ovule. Voilà pourquoi vous devez
ajouter sur une base hebdomadaire. Quoi qu'il en soit, je ne l'ai pas eu le temps
d'aller dans ce trop.

Si vous mettez probiotique dans l'alimentation que vous ne devez pas le mettre dans
l'étang, comme il vient dans les fèces.

Les avantages sont censés être la digestion et l'élimination des matières fécales et
les aliments non consommés sur le fond. Je viens de faire un procès et a ajouté
probiotique à un étang sur une base hebdomadaire. Je pris des échantillons de carottes de
fond à partir de 2 points fois par semaine. Il ne semble y avoir une réduction de
l'épaisseur et la couleur noire légèrement réduit à un brun très foncé. Mon succursale
dans la province de Nakhon Pathom en Thaïlande utilise ce probiotique et dit les étangs ne
sentent pas quand ils les égoutter.

Je ne le fais une fois un procès plus d'un an que je l'habitude 9 étangs. 3
contrôle, 3 un probiotique appelé ECOBAC et 3 avec un produit appelé Aquafresh. Je
l'ai fait 5 cultures de changement de sexe dans chaque étang et Aquafresh donné 10% de
mieux survie et ECOBAC 5% sur l'ensemble de la période.

Le gars de la compagnie dit, vous remarquerez beaucoup plus d'avantages si vous élevez
des poissons plus intensive. Si vous êtes comme nous et garder densités relativement
faible (sur l'ensemble du bassin qui est) et de drain étangs régulièrement, vous
pourriez ne pas remarqué une différence. Comme Will dit, il n'y a pas de remplacement
pour un bon élevage. Cela devrait toujours venir en premier.

Cordialement Warren 

       From: Sarnissa-african-aquaculture
[mailto:sarnissa-african-aquaculture-bounces@lists.stir.ac.uk]On Behalf Of William Leschen
via Sarnissa-african-aquaculture
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 5:52 PM
To: 'Anetekhaimartins'
Cc: sarnissa-african-aquaculture Mailing List; sarnissa-french-aquaculture Mailing List
Subject: Probiotics ? Pond fertilisation ……..     Probiotics ?  Pond fertilisation ……..
Read through  thread -  En francais au dessous           Dear Anetekhai    I didn’t
recommend probiotics   …. ! Murali did   -  one of our   fish farming members  - I am
posting   your reply up on the forum to see if others have  any  thoughts or ideas about 
using and paying  for  probiotics to    fertilise their ponds  for tilapia  catfish –
their positive and or negative effects? Personally I don’t think  its relevant here  as 
they are normally used in Asia for other purposes  particularly related to health on
commercial    shrimp farms      - Note in Nigeria as  you are probably aware  they  (and
their like)  are increasingly being added as feed supplements for the Clarias hatchery and
juveniles  without in a lot of cases in my opinion  the fish farmers actually knowing what
they are buying   and using – also   in Nigeria  “Tonics” for pond water  quality   now
been openly sold off the shelf (at high prices)  in bottles and   packets by
pharmaceutical companies     which again  the fish farmers have little idea what the  
  active  ingredients are   and how they should work – or I should say IF they work . 
With respect For pond  fertilisation I would read carefully the words of the people who
have been doing it years in Asia and  some in Africa  - and realise that this  is
something that cannot just come out of a text book or be remedied by  buying a  packet or
bottle from a pharmacist  – is site specific and has to come from careful observation and
years of experience……     Best wishes Will      From: Anetekhaimartins
[mailto:anetekhaimartins@gmail.com]
Sent: 26 October 2015 07:30
To: William Leschen
Subject: RE: FW: Semi-intensive ponds Optomimum fetilsation and maintenance Mozambique   
Good day William, I just read one of your responses in which you recommended probiotic. I
have also observed some farmers bringing into Nigeria some probiotics for use. My fear is
that there may be negative impact on the long run. Are you aware of any such report? Can
you educate me on any negetive impact. Thank you. Anetekhai martins       Cher Anetekhai

 Je ne recommande pas les probiotiques .... ! Murali a fait -   l'un de nos membres de
pisciculture - je poster votre réponse sur le forum pour voir si d'autres ont des
pensées ou des idées sur l'utilisation et le paiement des probiotiques pour fertiliser
leurs étangs du tilapia poisson-chat? Personnellement, je ne pense pas que son compte ici,
car ils sont normalement utilisés en Asie à d'autres fins liées notamment à la santé
sur les élevages de crevettes commerciaux

- Note au Nigeria que vous êtes probablement au courant qu'ils (et leurs semblables)
sont de plus en plus ajoutés comme compléments alimentaires pour l'écloserie de
Clarias et mineurs sans en beaucoup de cas, à mon avis, les pisciculteurs sachant
réellement ce qu'ils achètent et utilisent - aussi au Nigeria "toniques"
pour la qualité de l'eau de l'étang désormais ouvertement vendus (à des prix
élevés) dans des bouteilles et des paquets par les compagnies pharmaceutiques qui encore
une fois les pisciculteurs ont peu idée de ce que les ingrédients actifs sont et comment
ils doivent travailler - ou devrais-je dire si elles travail . Avec respect pour la
fertilisation des étangs Je voudrais lire attentivement les paroles des gens qui ont fait
ça années en Asie et dans certains pays africains - et de réaliser que ceci est quelque
chose qui ne peut pas juste de sortir d'un livre de texte ou être remédié par un achat
d'un paquet - est spécifique au site et doit venir de l'observation et des années
d'expérience attention ......

Amicalement  Will

De: Anetekhaimartins [mailto: anetekhaimartins(a)gmail.com]
Envoyé 26 Octobre ici à 2015 7:30
Pour: William Leschen
Sujet: Re: FW: étangs semi-intensifs fetilsation Optomimum et l'entretien du
Mozambique

Bonjour William,
Je viens de lire un de vos réponses dans lequel vous recommandé probiotique.
Je ai également observé certains agriculteurs mettant en Nigeria certains probiotiques
pour l'utilisation.
Ma crainte est qu'il peut y avoir des répercussions négatives sur le long terme.
Etes-vous conscient d'un tel rapport?
Pouvez-vous me renseigner sur tout impact negetive.
Merci.
Martins Anetekhai 

-------- Original message --------
From: William Leschen via Sarnissa-african-aquaculture
&lt;sarnissa-african-aquaculture(a)lists.stir.ac.uk&gt;
Date: 24/10/2015 1:55 PM (GMT+01:00) 
To: sarnissa-african-aquaculture Mailing List
&lt;sarnissa-african-aquaculture(a)lists.stir.ac.uk&gt;
Subject: FW: Semi-intensive ponds Optomimum fetilsation and maintenance Mozambique    
From:chnmurali@gmail.com [mailto:chnmurali@gmail.com]
Sent: 24 October 2015 10:12
To: William Leschen
Subject: Re: Semi-intensive ponds Optomimum fetilsation and maintenance Mozambique   Dear
William   Looking at the parameters sent by Chris it clearly says that pond is over
blooming since the oxygen levels are over saturated.    He mentioned total alkalinity as
180 but did not mention about carbonate and bicarbonate  alkalinity or pH, I assume that
pH will be definitely high in the evening times with high carbonates and also more CO2 in
the early hours. This condition will subject the fish to extreme stress and sometimes mass
mortality in early hours.    Dilluting pond with fresh water also not a solution, the more
you flush the more it blooms if the pond has accumulated organic load and high nitrogen
levels.    My suggestion is to drain surface water in the mid afternoon when plankton
 will be floating on surface at higher density and top up water in the night time.    Add
Sodium carbonate in the early hours to reduce CO2 and not to rise pH, never go to Calcium
based liming products till he get stabilized pH. I assume that pH fluctuation at this
stage might be more than 1, it's has to come down to 0.5 then only we can say
buffering is good.   Either organic or inorganic fertiliser he has to make a slurry, and
broadcast that in water to avoid organic load entering pond when using organic fertiliser
or inorganic fertiliser helping growth of macrophytes.    He should not stop feeding but
reduce it to half until bloom is stabilised.    Start using Probiotics which can take care
of water quality.    With Regards  Murali

Sent from my iPhone 
On 24 Oct 2015, at 8:03 AM, William Leschen via Sarnissa-african-aquaculture
&lt;sarnissa-african-aquaculture(a)lists.stir.ac.uk&gt; wrote: 
Thanks Warren  - Manual contains  nice  review of pond fertilisation   Hi Chris,   Farmers
do this by looking at the water colour and fertilising in response to this.  There will
tend to be a need to increase fertilisation over time as the fish grow.  A dried pond just
filled with go green easily due to good light penetration.  Turbidity reduces light
penetration which phytoplankton depend on.  Earthen ponds get more turbid with time.  Soil
obviously has a big effect.  Cloudy weather also.  Don't be tempted to keep putting in
more fertiliser if the pond doesn't go green, particularly if the weather is very
cloudy all day.  As soon as you get a sunny day it will change to pea soup.    The
recommended amount found by research at AIT is 4 kg of nitrogen and 1-2 kg of phosphorous
per ha per day.  Of course you need to know how much N and P are in any organic
ferilisers.  Inorganic fertiliser is easier to calculate.  %N is quoted on the bag, but P
is quoted as P2O5 and to calculate how much P in a kg you need to allow of the oxygen.  1
mole of P is 30.974g and a mole of oxygen is 15.999.  So a mole of P2O5 would weigh
109.918.  61.948g of this is P which is equivalent to 56.36%   In 1 kg of16-20-0
fertiliser (N-P-K) you have 160g of N and 200 x 56.36% = 112.7g P.    See this link to a
pond rearing manual I put on the website
=http://tilapiathai.com/asset/NILE%20TILAPIA%20CULTURE%20IN%20EARTHEN%20PONDS.pdf    If
you are using inorganics and are adding N and P only, you might want to try adding K.  For
example, we used to use 16-20-0 which we apply at 187 kg/ha/week.  We now use 15-15-15 at
the same rate, as we find it gets the pond green better I assume as K is limiting
sometimes.  If the pond doesn't go green we can try adding dolomite which contains
magnesium.    If you are adding some organics, then you won't have deficiency of
elements required in small amounts.   Secchi disk measurements will relate not just to
phytoplantkton levels, but all suspended solids.  Chlorophyll levels can be measured, but
it really isn't difficult to do it by eye.  Remember that any feed going in the pond
is also adding N and P.   Best   Warren   On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:12 PM, William Leschen
&lt;william.leschen(a)stir.ac.uk&gt; wrote: Dear Chris Thanks   I will post this up on the
sarnissa forum  but am also copying to -  rather than  limnologists – much better in my
opinion those who have applied and practiced hands on over many years  -      Peter 
(Edwards – you’ve already corresponded with him)  and also Warren Turner  in Thailand as
Warren at Namsai has worked out   protocols over the years for optimum fertilisation of
his ponds and also maintenance/balance of blooms over longer prod time periods   - 
 noting also though that as you know  the local pond substrate ,  water quality at inflow 
go to make up very specific water chemistry for particular sites – each one different –
also   their particular buffering capacity   towards  more stable algal bloom production
over time  - I think I realised a while ago on visits to long well established greenwater
pond systems  China  exactly how much of a skill and an art this is –   - and something
that is very much experience based not just   getting  figures and dose rates   for
organic and inorganic from text books.  Ive also copied to Mark Amechi in Ghana as his  
pond hatchery site  through a nos of French   origin  site managers has developed
greenwater pond systems for them that work over the years  - Also for you might be worth
looking  to trial 1-2 ponds from scratch seeding of specific algal species ?If you haven’t
already I would  recommend looking at some of Claude Boyds now old but still very valid 
publications from Auburn  - books but also plenty of papers  Eg  
http://www.alibris.com/Dynamics-of-Pond-Aquaculture-Claude-E-Boyd/book/1847…
http://www.amazon.com/By-Claude-Boyd-Aquaculture-Management/dp/B008WDSSL0   Best wishes
Will   From: Chris Schnell [mailto:cwschnell@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 October 2015 13:36
To: William Leschen
Subject: Semi-intensive ponds   Dear Will, If you have a limnologist in the forum, he
could possibly help me resolve my questions. Or, anyone with experience of growing tilapia
in mud ponds would most probably be able to clarify things. Producing tilapia in
semi-intensive mud ponds using algae and supplementary feed is not all that easy as it
sounds, especially when you start having problems with fertilizing the water. What is the
best way to measureprimary production of algae? Does oxygen levels tell the whole story,
or does one also look at the green / grey colour of the water? Or are there better
methods? My problem started with overdosing. It seems as if it takes a long time to dilute
one’s nutrients and algae once you have a bloom with a reading of less than 15 cm on the
Secchi disk. For financial reasons I did not want to remove water from my pond after over
dosing, but now I keep on adding more water and the Secchi readings do not go up. I cut
down dramatically in adding new fertilizer. This makes me worry that the algae in the pond
could be dead or just floating solids and that the primary production, that serves as feed
for the tilapia, is not sufficient. My ponds are around 1 hectare in size and the depth
varies between 400mm and 900mm. Temperature is 27°C at the bottom and 29°C at the surface.
Oxygen at 12h00 is 12.5 ml/l at the surface and 9.5 ml/l at a depth of 900 mm. I fertilise
with dry cow manure, Urea and DAP. Total alkalinity is around 180. Best regards, Chris
Schnell The University is ranked in the QS World Rankings of the top 5% of universities in
the world (QS World University Rankings, 2014) The University of Stirling is a charity
registered in Scotland, number SC 011159.   

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Re: [Sarnissa] FW: Probiotics ? Pond fertilisation ……..